The following is the second important email I ever sent to Andrew Strom which he never answered. He never answered my first email either. You will find the reason for this message and reason I placed it online below. The subject is of grave importance to not only the Body but to the eternal purpose.
Dear Andrew,
This term "under 'LEADERS'" exposes and points to some concepts that I must address, so I'll get right to the point. Could it be that you have an agenda in using the term? Do you really think that the experiences you've had as a result of your own problems inwardly have become the Word of God for your generation and everyone else?? Or are the words of the Lord Jesus more important? What about His word: "IT SHALL NOT BE SO AMONG YOU" when addressing the concept of brothers being under the authority of other brothers???
The term "under 'LEADERS'" Has GOT TO GO! PERIOD! There is NO EXCUSE for this outrageous rebellion! Your very use of this term is rebellion against God! But you're the guy who says he's sinlessly perfect!! Amazing! Just who do you think you are? Not only must you repent, you must repent quickly and as publicly as possible!! Since your sin is public and has affected many wrongly. The term "under 'LEADERS.'" has a preposition that there are classes among the offspring of the Most High, and THERE IS NO SUCH ANIMAL IN EXISTENCE!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not to say there are not believers above other believers in the building of the living House which is a living organism of The Messiah. But if anyone is "over" it is NOT leaders!!!!!! And being over certainly does not mean that any believer can be an authority over another believer. At least not to be so in the new creation. Now maybe they can on an earthly level, but that's a horse of a different color according to a different gene structure. Since according to the scripture the apostles and prophets making up the foundation are on the bottom of the house as humble servants, not on top: EVERYONE ELSE is OVER them, NOT under them. Now does this mean these brothers, being our servants make us the masters over them? No!!!! Of course not! Paul said being a servant is important but NOT UNTO MAN (as far as "under authority") but unto The Messiah. Of course we serve men. We serve one another, but not according to their orders and commands but according to the ONE Lord, Head, Rabbi, Master and King.
While thinking about this I visited the link to a book I wrote a few years back: http://www.lostkeysrevelation.com/tradcon.html and was amazed at the list of Protestant and Catholic traditions listed and explained in the book. EVERY one of them has the Nicolaitan clergy-laity system at the root!!!!!! My point is: you cannot be delivered from traditions of men that make the word of God of none effect if you are not first delivered from thinking brothers can have authority over other brothers. The pew has this system at its root; the pulpit, the platform above other believers, etc.etc. .. on and on. If you do not lay the ax at the root of this tree, no wonder you cannot be "out of church"! Maybe you never left the church in the first place. Well, I'm saying you didn't if you never stopped believing that there is a possibility of one believer having authority over another believer.
In Matthew 28:18 Jesus said "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth." Andrew, what part of the word "ALL" do you not understand??? Are you deaf? Or are you blind every time you have read this? All in the original Greek and in English still means all. Now there are some other biblical passages and other subjects you are deceived on that I could address based on your not simply accepting the word "all" as just meaning what it says, but I am not addressing these issues at this time and may never do so. But when our Lord Jesus said all He meant what He said and that means 100%!! He didn't leave even 1% for you or me or anybody else for that matter! In the kingdom of God amongst those who have the divine DNA and life of God there is only one King over us. We may be kings also or getting there, but that is over our circumstances, demons and someday nations, NOT over each other! Addressing such an issue the Lord said "it shall not be so among you."
So, what of that passage? I know you probably have said you agree with it but your written words say different. Again, Jesus speaks different from you in Mark 10: " Ye know that those who are esteemed to rule over the nations exercise lordship over them; and their great men exercise authority over them; 43 but it is not thus among you; but whosoever would be great among you, shall be your minister; 44 and whosoever would be first of you shall be bondman of all." Again, He is certainly not saying that the other believers have actual authority over the servants of God. You admit this, but why do you not admit that servants of God have no authority over other believers who do not serve much? This is re-iterated again in Matthew 20 and again in Luke 22: "24 And there was also a strife among them which of them should be held to be the greatest. 25 And he said to them, The kings of the nations rule over them, and they that exercise authority over them are called benefactors. 26 But *ye* shall not be thus; but let the greater among you be as the younger, and the leader as he that serves. 27 For which is greater, he that is at table or he that serves? Is not he that is at table? But *I* am in the midst of you as the one that serves." His words: "you shall not be thus" - thus what? HAVING AUTHORITY OVER EACH OTHER! Now, what part of "you shall not be thus" do you not understand?? You will be judged for this unless you repent!!! Mark it down and do it now!
OK, so am I commanding you? Do I have authority over you to command you to repent? No! But I do believe the authority of the Messiah can pass through us and be manifested to each other and at such a time we must submit to it. So do we submit to each other? Yes, but only in the fear of the Messiah as unto the Messiah. There is only one Head among us. Even children are enjoined to - yes - obey their parents but ONLY in the Lord. Should a child obey a parent who advises him to murder? Of course not!
So let me change the subject a little bit. You wrote "I was asked several weeks ago by a pastor whether I agreed that what is happening could be a 'move of God'. That is a pretty radical thought. Many leaders would think the opposite. Because anything that leads people out of "their church" can't be of God, can it?" Your reply was "Hmmmm ..." But let me ask you: what part of "come out of her my people" do you not understand? There is NO EXCUSE for not coming out of today's religious system and hating the whore!! NO EXCUSE! OK, so I see plainly that many believers do not see what the whore is and what the system is and have different interpretations as to what Mystery Babylon means. But my question is what your interpretation is? Does Protestantism have a complete departure from the Catholic abominations or not? Do we compromise with something the Lord detests and hates or do we absolutely depart from it? AND disagree with it. What agreement has the temple of God with the temple of idols?? To admit that any man has authority over us is to usurp the place of the Headship and Lordship of Jesus the Messiah and His place alone and IT IS IDOLATRY!!! You are guilty of this and must repent JUST because you have used the term "under leaders." I ask you does Peter use this term of the elders in his day or did he write them saying "2 shepherd the flock of God which is among you, exercising oversight, not by necessity, but willingly; not for base gain, but readily; 3 not as lording it over your possessions, but being models for the flock." ??? He used the word among not "over" or under for that matter. He also enjoined them not to take the place of lord because that place belongs to God alone in the house of God. Obvious stuff here. Maybe you just mistakenly have written it wrong??? Or not stated your words carefully enough? Either way, you must still repent because the influence has done damage.
Again I quote you: "But it is not possible to stay "alone" forever. Some day, if these people are going to be part of a new move of God's Spirit, they are going to have to come out of their wilderness and become part of the "BODY" that Jesus brings together - the 'new wineskin' that will come with this new move of God. Otherwise they could miss out. That is the great danger. " OK, I agree that aloneness is usually not the will of God, but it is better than being in Babylon disobedient to Him. But what you said about the "new wineskin" which you put in quotes is in question. The question is what YOU mean by the term? If you mean a wineskin that accepts Nicolaitanism (this term means of course a "ruling class over the common people") where there is a "leadership" class, then no wonder you put quotes around the term! You seem to not be clear yourself as to what the new wineskin even is. I'll tell you one thing. The real new wineskin cannot abide Nicolaitanism. The Lord Jesus said "which thing I HATE". Now hate is a pretty strong word. Now in Revelation chap. 2 He addresses first that He hates the deeds of the Nicolaitans but later He addresses another assembly saying also “which thing I hate” mentioning the teachings of the Nicolaitans. You see, 1st it is works then later it becomes a doctrine. Thus it has become through the centuries and is still so today. But you, over and over again, talk about leadership as if there is a certain group of believers in this category and others are not!!!!! Leadership is talked about wayyyyy too much these days instead of the glories and wonders of Yeshua our wonderful Messiah. So please tell me who are the leaders? And ... who told YOU which ones are in this category??? And what are their qualifications? And why is it that YOU are a leader but the brother who calls out a song during a meeting and leads the song but just got born again last week is not a leader??? HE IS TOO!!!!! ALL God's children are leaders!!! There is not a ruling class. If your lead is in evangelism, sometimes the lead is through you but if mine is teaching sometimes it's with me. It depends which way the Head is leading the Body as to which brothers will be in the forefront at which time. But ALL have their function and the Lord is functioning through some more than others at various times.
YUP! So here's what I say about that: if you are not following a man you are not on Biblical grounds! This may sound contradictory to what I have before said but it is not. To contradict my last sentence is to contradict the Bible. Didn't Paul say "follow me as I follow the Messiah"?? So if there is not a person of this type in my locality or assembly then it is not possible for me but then I guess I better move somewhere else or be the example myself by being a follower of Jesus. Don't you see? These men are not authorities over each other but these followers are those who sit at Jesus' feet, listen to Him and go where He says go. We simply follow such as examples not as authorities for we must too listen to HIM and do what HE says not what some miserable human being says. IF God USES a human to speak through to me, I will test the Word and check with the Lord and obey God not men. According to Paul if we are going to have the reality of the Body EACH one part must hold the HEAD and that means The Messiah's Headship must be a reality to each one if the reality of the Body and Him expressing Himself through His Body is to become a reality.
Why don't you JUST GET OUT of our country!!! You are not welcome here!! Not by me anyway. The WORST thing that could happen to this world is that the calling on your life to bring revival becomes a reality and you still haven't repented of Babylonianism by giving up this Nicolaitan doctrine!! Because then you will revive the dead churches again and the Americanization of Christianity will continue to cast it's shadow and influence over this poor world. The world has had enough of this. If there is going to be revival, PLEASE God, let it be somewhere else and let those beleivers be the major influence in this world NOT United States believers. We have done enough damage on this earth and to God’s eternal economy. Anyone who does not see that American Christianity is the WORST INFLUENCE of any influence AGAINST the kingdom of God is BLIND!!! So, why would you want to come here just to agree with it??? You recently went to another country to spread the word. Good for you! If a revival comes to America like you say or like you claim to say - out in the streets and outside of Babylon for real, then fine. But until you are out of Babylon, I'd rather see an ichabod come on the religious America (as it already has) and our influence perish in this world. Is it going to be the same chapter but a different verse all over again in this nation? Revival is for the dead and the dead are in churches. I would much rather see an outpouring than a revival and see it get the lost and get them into real Body life. If you stay here, this is my highest hope for you. But the category you claim to be in is not what I see you in at this time. Please forgive me if I am wrong. I hope I am.
Now to answer some of the other things you have said on this subject. Your quotes will be in color.
But now they have left. Why? The church obviously finds this a very difficult thing to explain or deal with. The usual accusations are often trotted out: "So-and-so has been hurt and has a root of bitterness". Or they are in "rebellion". Or they are "not a team player". Or they are "backsliding".
Not usually true. Usually the organized church left behind is so dysfunctional they don’t even know someone has left and they don’t care.
I was asked several weeks ago by a pastor whether I agreed that what is happening could be a 'move of God'. That is a pretty radical thought. Many leaders would think the opposite. Because anything that leads people out of "their church" can't be of God, can it? Whatever do you mean? What part of “come out of her My people” do you not understand? This is not just a move of God this is a command of God pure and simple! Again, here you are directly opposing Jesus the Messiah’s very Own words! And He is God Almighty! What part of “COME OUT OF HER” DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND???!?!?!?!!!? The word you capitalized AGAINST is a statement of disagreement with your Maker! I would recommend to you, my brother, that you had better take Paul’s advice as a saint of God to set up a judgment seat against YOURSELF so that you don’t have God take this matter up with you later. We are awesome beings as saints that we can have our own judgment seat in the place of God judging us later. Neil Girrard has already addressed the "come out" subject in his online message to you at http://www.paidionbooks.org/girrard/deeper/comprev.html , but it seems you did not get it very well. Come out of her means come out of “church” and what the word “church” really means. If you are not clear on the meaning of this word and the damage it causes and why the word “church” should be dropped and banned from all true beleivers’ vocabulary (as well as practice), please see Neil’s web site for his articles on this subject. The word suggests false thinking and concepts as soon as it is uttered from any mouth. Then why do you use the term “under ‘LEADERS’”?? And why do you have the audacity to use the word ‘AUTHORITY’ capitalized, for goodness sake???? YOU HAD BETTER WAKE UP!!! AGAIN, you are contradicting the very words of Jesus. WAKE UP!!! So, pray tell, who was their authority over??? What did they do with it? Cast out devils? Then I say amen. Did the authority of Christ flow through them in such a way that the Word of God was spoken WITH JESUS authority ONLY as they were one with him at any given time. The I say amen but THAT authority is ONLY the authority of the HEAD Who lives in us and is delegated to no man ..... EVER! Now, do beleivers have authority over unbelievers to command them to repent? Yes, but only as they walk in the spirit and anointing of the Head and when unbelievers become believers they are regarded as fellow citizens of the house of God. If you have never read Neil Girrard’s article on the false doctrine of “delegated authority” at http://www.paidionbooks.org/girrard/studies/mythcda.html , you owe it to yourself to read and study it very carefully. Now I am going to quote myself as to this subject: On my site in Addendum 3 I point out Paul’s method of dealing with the Corinthian problems: “I would mention that there were many problems in the meetings due to the Corinthians immaturity and emphasizing the use of the more Pentecostal, showy type gifts rather than the gifts of prophesy, wisdom and knowledge which would bring revelation (I COR. 14:30) which is what builds( Matt. 16:17,18). Anyway in dealing with the problem in their meetings he did not take the meeting out of the hands of all the saints and put it into the hands of leaders. In fact in a book which deals with such stunning and awesome problems as they had he DID NOT MENTION LEADERS, ELDERS OR PASTORS EVEN ONCE!!!!! He did not even have such a concept in his brain. HE was their leader and it was the letter of an itinerant traveling extra-local apostle which was to deal with their problem and he just didn't even think in the minister-centered way of thinking like we do.” Also, you like most people seem to forget Acts 14 where Paul left believers ON THEIR OWN with NO special leaders, elders or ministers. (C’mon! They were ALL leaders and ministers!) THEN they went back and ordained elders (but not as lords but only as older guys with more experience and counsel). Also in that addendum the clear meaning of NT leadership is pointed out from the original meaning of the Greek in the scriptures: “Interestingly enough the word "authority" in Greek which means absolute authority over others is "exousia" It is only used of those who also really have "dunamis" which means power. God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, angels and demons. The list of those who have authority extends to certain other individuals who may or may not have 'dunamis' power: police, government officials and parents. In addition believers (who have 'dunamis power') have authority over demons and evil angels. Also believers are said to have authority over diseases and various facets of their lives such as eating, drinking and being married (I Cor. 11:10--I know you don't need scriptures over the other things) BUT there is not a single scripture that uses the word exousia concerning one believer having authority over another believer! Even more striking than this: there is not anything concerning such a concept in the whole N.T.! The word is only used of Paul in II Cor. 10:8 & 13:10 in giving him authority to build up not (hopefully) to tear down. Of course we ought to listen to such a one and the Lord's authority passes through such a one but Paul's authority was not something "over" other believer's rather it was "for" a purpose or rather to do something concerning them. Now what about us obeying church leaders? Well the scripture tells us to obey government (of course if faced with a choice of obeying that or God in case of a contradiction we must obey God, yet even then with a submissive attitude towards government) and it tells children to obey their parents but if we as believers are to "obey" church leaders (who by the way were told by Peter in I Pet 5 not to be lords over the flock but rather examples: proper examples)then the Bible studiously avoids saying so!!!!! The word hupakouo which is the Greek for obey is used however to obey God, the gospel of God (Rom. 10:16) and the teaching of the apostles(Phil 2:12; II Thes. 3:14 - the teaching of today's "apostles" had better be according to the scriptures or it should NOT be obeyed!) and of course that includes the whole N.T. which has NOTHING about obeying church leaders!!! So what about Heb. 13:17 and the word translated into our English word obey? Well this word and its true Greek (peitho) meaning is "let yourself be persuaded by" or "have confidence in" so we are to let ourselves be persuaded by our leaders. This of course means they should be respected by us and the respect is something earned because they have earned it by having more experience of life and Christ than most of us. Of course "persuaded" in the Greek means a two way conversation where you throw things back and forth and it doesn't mean absolute obedience to them but rather that we would lean to listening to them and taking counsel into serious consideration. It is not mindless acceptance but based on listening entering into discussion with them. The other word "submit" in the same verse is not the usual word usually used in Greek (hupotassomai) which means to get under an organization or person and is used in Rom. 13:1 of government (also Col 3:18 & I Pet. 2:13,18) etc. but rather the word is hupeitko which is used only in this verse! And it connotes not a structure to which one submits but a battle after which one yields! The image and real meaning conveyed is one of serious discussion and interchange after which one party gives way. This goes perfectly along with the other word in the same verse about letting ourselves be persuaded by. This is not mindless and you can't say that leaders are always right in each case. So anyway they have to constantly earn their respect. This is probably the reason why James said there should not be many teachers and you shouldn't desire to be one because not many know what the heck they are talking about and James said they will receive greater condemnation. This is true or it should be true. I don't believe that this is only condemnation from God but from people who will be watching such a one and checking him out and judging his teaching etc. Of course the persuasive power (and that's all they got) depends on truth and truth only.” OK, so I do not agree with Barna either but the Body just didn’t happen without true “sent ones” showing up for awhile; then taking off for awhile!!!! Looks like you are off. Acts 14 shows you are kind of off when it comes to leaders. They need to preach the gospel then go somewhere else and preach the gospel – not leave some bird dog from the “leadership class” behind to watch over those poor folks. Good night, they were the offspring of the Most High!! Yes, I do admit you are finally beginning to address a real problem here when there is bodylessness after having left Babylon but having a hang up about “overlords” of today’s nothingness Christianity is a good hang up to have!! It is in agreement with God! To rise up against such a thing is the kind of troublemaking Jesus DID! In fact He created a whip for such folks at one point! To rebel against such as these who would rule over you is Biblical. Paul talked about such in Galatians using the words: TO WHOM WE GAVE SUBJECTION; NO, NOT FOR ONE HOUR!! They were the ones who tried to bring bondage. TO WHOM WE GAVE SUBJECTION; NO, NOT FOR ONE HOUR!! They also tried to circumcise the flesh to turn some away from reliance on grace alone. TO WHOM WE GAVE SUBJECTION; NO, NOT FOR ONE HOUR!! They also tried to re-institute Moses' law on folks and circumcise their flesh. TO WHOM WE GAVE SUBJECTION; NO, NOT FOR ONE HOUR!! Let's face the truth against such WE NEED TO REBEL. WE ARE TO SUBMIT TO GOD THEN WE MUST REBEL AGAINST SATAN AND THE SATANIC IF ARE TO FOLLOW YESHUA!!!! They can't seem to help themselves, and they do not
realize that there are strongholds inside them that are causing
many of these problems. Some of their complaints are valid, but
others are caused by these strongholds. I was exactly the same
myself, and all I can say is- Please "DEEPLY RENOUNCE"
these strongholds until they are gone, my friends. I can agree with renouncing these kind of things in the presence of God, but then you go on to say this includes rebellion. Rebellion against whom? Against God? Then sure, I must agree. Rebellion against the lead of the Holy Spirit THROUGH a man? Then you are correct. But if you are saying that men “have authority” over other men, then you are in the category of the children of Israel and MOST beleivers in this country today in asking for another king other than Jesus to rule over them. This, the prophet Samuel mourned over and it damaged the people of God for centuries. How much more in the New Testament age! If you claim authority for a special leadership class OVER other believers you ARE in rebellion and contradicting the very words of the ONE true Master and Rabbi and King over the household of faith!! |
"If we are unwilling to either LEAD or be LED, then I believe we can virtually forget about taking part in [the next] new move of God." ("Leaving Behind")"United together we are very powerful – for God designed us to be a 'Body.' Split apart into 'individualists,' we are weak and ineffective." ("Leaving Behind")
This I agree with – as long as you admit that at any given time a different member might just be in the lead depending on the need of the Body at that particular time.
What do I mean when I say that so many are judging by "outward form and structure," instead of by the "heart"? -I mean exactly that. Let me give you an example: Let's say that there is an inner-city church with a "SENIOR PASTOR" that meets in a CHURCH BUILDING on SUNDAY MORNINGS - with "PROGRAMS" and all kinds of things. Shock! Horror! The very essence of "Babylon," right? But hang on a minute. Let's say this same group feeds the homeless every week, and preaches a piercing "repentance" gospel and prays and prays for the lost. ("Letter to Out of Church Christians")
If you can agree with what God disagrees with this proves you have never left Babylon yourself. The audacity of your saying this!! Is THIS not rebellion against the King Who said “come out of her”!??? If there exists such a group of believers then they are in revival and God forbid that such a revival would ever again take place. This is exactly what does NOT need to happen. Years ago God had no choice in this nation but then there was the Jesus movement outside the organized church. Babylon got that encapsulated too – killed it dead. The old wineskin leaks. Doesn’t matter how small the leak may be – if there is one ALL the wine will someday be gone. By the way, have folks really repented when they practice the idolatry of usurping clergy system replacing the Kingship and place of Jesus?
So many are MORE arrogant, MORE argumentative, MORE self-righteous, MORE 'judging' of things that don't matter, MORE smug and self-satisfied than they even were in church. And they are also LESS unified, LESS trusting, LESS able to be part of a 'Body.' ("Letter")
"And in the Book of Acts, they united under 'LEADERS.' It was 'LEADERS' that were the glue that God used to keep the whole thing together. This has simply always been His way." ("Leaving Behind")
Here is where I will quote Neil Girrard’s answer to you once again:
“Here is where Andrew departs from the Biblical and historical record the most. It is the erroneous teachings of Ignatius of Antioch (martyred c. 107 AD) that are the first recorded teachings of Nicolaitanism. It is the following of human leaders at the expense of personally and corporately following Christ that has diverted us from the original gospel!
Ignatius of Antioch (whose “humble” surname was “the God-bearer”) wrote, “Whoever is within the sanctuary is pure; but he who is outside the sanctuary is not pure; that is, he who does anything without bishop and presbytery and deacon, is not pure in conscience.” (Epistle to the Trallians, c. 7, as quoted by Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Vol. II, pp. 126) ”
Also let me say that ONLY when JESUS is the glue of His Body can we have true Body reality. Paul said each of us must hold the Head. I have experienced this Body reality and let me say that more authority and discipline and Headship that was dynamically life-changing was experienced by me WITHOUT special clergy guys than EVER before in my life. And no! I am NOT rebellious against the true Headship. That brought me to my knees to experience the most important virtue of all: humility.
As for the talk about the wilderness AFTER believers leave church. The NT disagrees by saying that the whore of Babylon is in the wilderness already. If you don’t leave that then you are in the wilderness and can never leave it until you obey and “come out of her my people that you be not partaker of her plagues.” Today’s Christianity can’t be put down criticized or belittled. How can you belittle NOTHING? Today’s Christianity is NOTHING!!!! PERIOD! To whom I'll give my subjection to? No!! NOT FOR ONE HOUR!!!!!
Agape,